Thursday, November 29, 2012
Overcoming FLO
Marquis has an argument about the wrongness of killings, which rests on the idea that to murder someone what you rob that person of is a future value, or as he puts it, a future like ours (FLO). A FLO is of course not a future that looks exactly like yours since your neighbor may not come to value your goals, projects, or the same experiences you do. A FLO is whatever makes your life worthwhile; that there is something in your future that you will value. According to this view, what makes abortions wrong is it deprives the fetus of its FLO. No doubt that a fetus does not have anything it currently values but eventually will have this and so must not be destroyed. But the problem with this view is that it appears that sperm and reproductive female eggs also have a FLO. Do you think that the argument that Marquis presents not only makes abortions wrong but also birth control? Is there anyway to counter this apparently crushing criticism of FLO? Or perhaps it is the case that any kind of birth control is wrong because it deprives reproductive cells from their FLO,.
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
This is a very interesting argument. I agree with Marquis that abortion is depriving the fetus from its FLO and therefore should not take place. However, I have a hard time agreeing with his argument that birth control is wrong because of FLO. I believe that the egg by itself or the sperm by itself are not able to have FLO because they would never be anything more unless they unite. I feel that his argument is similar to saying a females monthly cycle would be considered against FLO- and that would not make any sense. Only once they unite and create a zygote and then fetus would the FLO be an issue.
ReplyDeleteGreat point about a females monthly cycle being considered FLO. I think your right when you say that would not make any sense. I believe that birth control in fact prevent abortion because it stops the female from becoming pregnant when she does not want to be.
DeleteGreat point about the monthly cycle! I so agree with this!
DeleteI agree with you. The sperm and egg have no FLO unless they meet.
DeleteYes, I completely agree with your statement. Ovulating would be an interruption to FLO if Marquis was right.
DeleteI can agree with the statement that abortion does in face deprive the fetus of FLO. On the other hand I cannot come to believe that the use of birth control is also wrong because it deprives the egg and the sperm from uniting to make FLO. I agree with S. Paige about the face that the sperm and the egg alone do not have FLO because there nothing more than a sperm and an egg unless they united. I believe that it is only once the sperm and egg unite can there be any type of FLO. I believe that birth control is preventing abortion because it is used to prevent a woman from becoming pregnant when she is not ready. I think that people that are anti abortion should in face believe in birth control to prevent abortion. As we all know abortion is a very controversial topic and I found both reading interesting because they discussed abortion and a way I have not yet read about.
ReplyDeleteKaylena,
DeleteI agree that personally I do not think birth control is affecting FLO. However, in the context that marquis talks about it, I believe it would fall under the category of depriving a baby of FLO. He thinks that anything that deprives possible FLO is wrong, to me this would qualify.
I agree. The egg and the sperm have to unite for there to be any time of FLO. Birth control is the only way to prevent pregnancy if there was no choices, we would have lots of pregnancies.
DeleteI do agree with Marquis's argument that abortion deprives the fetus of FLO. It is a very controversial topic in our society today and being able to share one's own view on the topic raises many debates. When Marquis goes to say that birth control is wrong and can deprive a possible fetus of a FLO, I don't agree with him. Birth control is used to prevent unwanted pregnancies therefore preventing those abortions that many people are so strongly against. As others have stated before, a sperm and an egg is nothing until they are united which is why I can't agree with this argument. I believe that birth control should be used if one is not in a position to have a baby. Many cases of unplanned or unwanted pregnancies are due to that person not using a form of contraceptive. If a contraceptive was in fact used then those unwanted abortion wouldn't happen.
ReplyDeleteGreat post! like you said birth control is a way to PREVENT abortion.
DeleteOn a personal level I agree with you that birth control does do a service to prevent abortion. Contraceptives would be very beneficial to reduce abortion.
DeleteI agree with Marquis's argument that abortion deprives a fetus of FLO, but do not agree with the idea that birth control also does. Birth control is a conteceptive which makes sure that those abortions and actual deprivation of FLO does not occur. As Morgan stated above, a sperm and an egg are not an actual living human until they are united in fertilization. Abortions happen because people do not want the babies or did not plan for it. Birth control makes it so that abortion does not have to happen and the do not have to take FLO away from a living fetus/growing human.
ReplyDeleteI agree with your statment. Birth control helps so that abortions dont have to take place.
DeleteHello! I also have to agree with you statement. Birth control is a fantastic method in efforts to avoid unplanned pregnancy, allowing for an abortion to not be the only option. FLO is taken away from the fetus when abortion is used.
DeleteFor birth control to be considered depriving reproductive cells the right of FLO, then abstinence can also be considered the same. Withholding from sex deprives reproductive cells the right of FLO because they are produced and discarded regardless. Birth control does not stop FLO of reproductive cells any more than a condom or abstinence for the simple reason the birth control does not stop menstruation. A woman on the pill can still get pregnant.
ReplyDeleteOn the topic of abortion, yes stopping that life before it is brought into this world can be considered depriving the right of FLO. But should we consider it wrong to deprive of FLO if the FLO of that fetus will be a condemned one? To me it is wrong to bring a life into this world to suffer, when the quality of life will suffer substantially then the life should not start. There are too many people in this world suffering to bring innocent children into life unprepared and condemned to suffer. That being said, if the life of that fetus can be a good one then it is wrong to end the life.
If we are strictly speaking on terms of the argument Marquis makes about the wrongness of abortions then I do agree that abortions and birth control would be wrong. There would be no denying the fact that you are killing something that has FLO "egg and sperm" thus making Marquis' argument complete. The only counter that I would say makes birth control acceptable under Marquis' argument would be if the person has genes that would ensure some sort of defect in any child that is born. I believe that you could make an argument for birth control if the child is certain to encounter genetic disorders. Any person who is capable of having healthy children would be wrong under Marquis' argument is they were to take birth control.
ReplyDeleteI can see the good and the bad when it comes to this topic. It has been so controversial and everybody has their own opinion and that is fine. I agree that abortion deprives the fetes and that he says it is morally wrong except in certain cases. Marquis says that if we abort the fetes we are depriving it of a life that as we live now would not have. He says the only way we should kill is in self defense, to save our own life. The FLO wrongness of killing says that the loss of a future of value is a misfortune, making abortion wrong. Birth control is out there so women do not have to worry about unwanted pregnancies and abortions so i don't think birth control should be a topic to be altered.
ReplyDeleteI agree Brooke. If Marquis was right about birth control then there would be lots of unwanted pregnancies. Unless a sperm and an egg unite there is no FLO interruption.
DeleteLike many others I also agree with Marquis's argument that an abortion deprives a fetus of FLO. As my view, as soon as the egg and sperm meet there is a possibility of a future life, and wrapped in that is whether it is Gods choice to let that life continue to grow or not. But separately the egg and the sperm do not maintain a FLO. With out one there would never be a fetus and though birth control prohibits the possibility for the occurance of a pregnancy, it does not prohibit the FLO of the sperm or the egg.
ReplyDeleteThat is a good point that you make about the egg and sperm being separate until they meet. To me this would not qualify for depriving a baby of FLO. I think that Marquis' argument for this would go the other way though.
DeleteI agree that abortion is wrong. But everyone has their own take on it; whether something is wrong with the baby or they have been raped.
ReplyDeleteWhile there are countless of arguments that suggest that abortion is wrong I feel that it's not my decision to dictate what others do with their lives or the lives inside them. I feel the same way about others deciding what I can and cannot do or what my wife can and cannot do. There are cases where an abortion is necessary to save the life of the mother. I disagree that abortion should be used as a form of birth control however there are times when it's medically necessary. While I may not feel that abortions are necessary in my own life, I will not, and can't justify pushing my opinions, perspective or beliefs onto anyone else.
ReplyDeleteJack,
DeleteI don't think that abortion has ever been used as a first option for birth control, more of a reaction to a poor situation. In my opinion under Marquis' pretense abortion absolutely deprives an infant of FLO.
I agree with you, Jack. I do not want anyone controlling my body during certain times. If something terrible were to happen to me I would want it to be my choice of what to do in my circumstances and not somebody elses choice. I do not completely agree with abortion however, if someone were raped and forced to keep their child and carry it to term how do you think it would make them feel? Giving it up for adoption is an option however, wouldnt it be a tragic memory when and if your child found you and they asked who their father was and how you met?
DeleteDawn Bunik
If one is going to believe in FLO then they have to believe in all of it thus the egg and the sperm also have a FLO. They cannot just choose the parts of the FLO argument that they want to believe. The potential for FLO is in every potential fetus, thus all forms of birth control should be considered immoral if you were to believe in such nonsense, I am not a "pro-choice" kind of person nor am I against abortion. I think that abortions are the choice of the women, and if she thinks that an abortion is necessary then she shouldn't be deprived of her rights to choose. I do not think that abortions should be used as a for of borth control. There are obvious methods of controlling pregnancies and all these should be used to the fullest extent. Abortions should be a last ditch effort, and are not recommended in my mind. I think that young adults who think they are grown up enough to be having sex should be responsible for their actions. pregnancy is preventable, that is all there is too it. Im not saying that these idiots should be having babies because obviously if they are too irresponsible to use condoms or take BC then they are probably too irresponsible to take care of a baby. I think that abortions wouldn'e be such a big issue if a person were taught to use BC or had it readily available. Rape is a different matter, because the women was forced to have intercourse and if she doesn't want to baby then she shouldnt be forced to keep it or to carry it inside of her as a daily reminder of what happened for nine months. People who are against abortion haven't been put in a situation where they have had to choose, or had their right to choose taken away. I think it is all a matter of opinion and its nobodies business, nor does anybody have the right to tell anybody else what they can or cannot do with their own body.
ReplyDeleteGreat response. I couldn't agree more. People cannot pick and choose which aspects of FLO they want to believe. The birth control prevents conception and therefore prevents the fetus it's FLO. I also agree that the FLO notion is nonsense.
DeleteIn this context I can understand Marquis's point about abortion being wrong but by no means do I see birth control as being wrong or preventing FLO. I consider the notion that a fetus is preventing from flow because this fetus has potential for life by it's self. For birth control to be wrong it would have to be doing the same thing but neither a sperm or an egg can live without contact of one another. Alone neither a sperm or and egg can produce a viable human life so therefore there is nothing wrong with birth control.
ReplyDeleteI agree Erin. Even if someone wasn't using birth control, if the egg wasn"t used every ovulation period than that would be wrong in Marquis's view as well. At least that is what I gather from his view points.
DeleteThe argument that Marquis presents makes abortion, but also birth control wrong. I agree with Crystal in the fact that if you believe in one aspect of FLO then you must believe in the other. This is why I do not agree with the FLO argument. I think that by implying that birth control is wrong because it prevents FLO is crazy. Birth control prevents unwanted pregnancy which therefore presents future abortions. I think a woman's right to do what she wants to do with her body overpowers the future life of the fetus. People never take into consideration the woman's future life. She has every right to have the life she is entitled to and sometimes having a baby takes that away from them. I do not agree with the use of abortion for birth control, but I think that if a person doesn't want a child and is forced to have one then there will be a lot of regret in the woman's life and could possibly mean the child not having the greatest life anyway.
ReplyDeleteOf course the flip side of an abortion is the emotional trauma and often regret later in life. I know several women who have had abortions who have had to undergo extensive therapy because of it. So I suppose it could be said an abortion still leaves some women with regret.
DeleteI agree that abortion does deprive the fetus of a FLO, but I do not agree that using birth control is wrong. Birth control prevents abortions from happening. It controls the woman's choice whether to have a child or not. Denying reproductive cells to join does not deprive of a FLO. If this was the case, then every couple would have an obligation to have sex every time the woman is ovulating in order to give their cells a FLO. The argument would not be valid, for it is still the couple's choice when they want to conceive. Reproductive cells may have a future FLO, but this does not mean birth control is wrong.
ReplyDeleteGood point! If there is no birth control then how there be so many unexpected abortions? The woman is even more so in charge.
DeleteI also agree that birth control helps prevent abortions.
DeleteI agree with Marquis with abortion does deprive the fetus of FLO, however I do not agree that birth control is wrong. If Marquis was right about the birth control issue than it would be wrong to let the eggs go to waste every month when a woman is ovulating. Every women would be pregnant in this case. The birth control issue doesn't make sense to me.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Marquis that abortion does deprive the fetus of FLO. However, I have a problem with the the fact that he states an egg and sperm also have FLO. Neither sperm nor egg can produce offspring individually. Thus, I believe neither has FLO until they come together. Because of this belief, I do not think birth control deprives the reproductive cells of their FLO.
ReplyDeleteI personally do not believe in abortion. I know that it is something I would never be capable of doing. However, I do understand that situations arise when arbortions do need to happen. I try not to judge people who have had arbortions or believe in them. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But the way I see it, there are numerous options available to prevent pregnancy so why not use them. Yes, they are not always 100% effective, but there are plenty of people in the world who are unable to have a child that want one. Why kill an innocent person that was never given a chance at life?
In the case of FLO that Marquis demonstrates, I would say birth control would also be wrong. I believe in his perspective it would have to be, otherwise his stance would not be correct. He does mention at the time of conception, in which he refers to zygotes and embryos, that it would abortion would still be considered wrong. He also mentions that abortion is only okay if the women be in danger of her life. In these cases and most, killing is indeed the worst crime. I do not feel like abortion is wrong, but I do not like it either. Beliefs and norms vary drastically. Overall, I think the part that talks about women being able to choose what they want with their bodies is only right, and should be respected. Some women should be limited though.
ReplyDeleteSperm and reproductive eggs have a hypothetical FLO, a potential FLO, but no actual FLO until conception as far as the argument is concerned. Once we have a multicellular organism made of moth parents DNA then the FLO is "on". This is possible, in my opinion, but so is the possiblity that the body will reject the fertilized egg and in doing so perform it's own abortion without anyone's help.
ReplyDeleteIndividually Sperm and female eggs (ovum) have a lot of potential energy, infinite kinetic and chemical energy. The problem is that there are a trillion cells that need to cooperate to make that happen and at any time during this creative process there could be a natural abortion, or a catastrophic cellular mutation that could make the embryo unviable. Who is to blame for this sudden turn of events? Who is to be held responsible for this morally? Not gonna happen.
It appears to me that MArquis does not make a solid argument for or against birth control. By denying that there is an individual at stake prior to conception then one cannot commit aa fallicy in logic and surmise that there is patent homicidal tendencies at work here when people engage in recreational sexual intercourse with contraceptives in use.
I agree that once a zygote has formed it is a living thing, and thus FLO comes into play. A foetus is a living thing and therefore should be considered in the same way as any other living thing. I do not agree that birth control is wrong as sperm and eggs, while technically "living" are not a life form as such.
ReplyDeleteHowever while i agree that FLO should be a reason for abortion not to happen, I admit that I do feel that every mother deserves to have the right to choose, and especially if the baby and birth process possibly poses a threat to the mother's life, then you have to take into account the FLO of both the mother and the foetus. Should the mother be placed at risk for a foetus that, while is has FLO, doesn't realize it at the time? Or should the foetus be allowed to live and the mother, who has already lived a life, possibly die? It is a very complicated issue and I do not believe that Marquis makes a strong argument for either side.
As far as birth control goes, Marquis' argument is almost saying that using condoms/birth control pills is equivilent to murder, if the sperm and eggs have FLO. WHich in my opinion is an illogical argument, as in that case, we are all murderers.
Prior to hearing this FLO argument, I was already pro-life, but find this theory strengthens my stance. I had never heard of it before, but perhaps this is because it can also be applied to birth control (which a lot of pro-lifers, including myself have used). I agree with Marquis FLO argument in regards to abortion, but think it is far fetched to apply the same argument to eggs and sperm. I think Paige (above) summed it up best by saying that a woman's monthly cycle would be considered anti-FLO. A sperm or an egg have no FLO on their own, unlike an unborn child, however, I can still see how it could be a strong argument against birth control. I think the argument actually bothers me enough that had I heard this years ago, I would have ended up with several more children.
ReplyDeleteThis is one of those topics that creates a lot of emotion. When discusing the use of abortion and birth control, its a 50/50 arguement. Marquis's argument is presenting that abortion as well birth control is wrong, hence it deprives a fetus fo FLO. First, i am in favor of birth control. Implying that the use of birth control is wrong and disrupts FLO is wrong. Birth control is a preventative measure that decreases the chance of an unwanted pregnancy. I fell abortion is wrong in terms of being used as a birth control method. Abortion does prent FLO, and I agree with that. Its a womens choice to decide what to do with her body, and how she chooses to live. Either way, if a women chooses to keep her child, or seek abortion, she will be the one affected most by that decision.
ReplyDeleteFrom Marquis's view, yes! Because birth control prevents sperm and eggs from experiencing a FLO it does go against what Marquis states. Since Marquis's idea is to allow for all living things to experince FLO, sperm and eggs are living so he follows under the sperm and eggs having a FLO. I think that we can definately counter this crushing criticism because birth control just prevents sperm and eggs from having a FLO when abortion kills what the sperm and eggs created. So really, the birth control is just a preventative and not a killing or stopping device. I think birth control is very good in many ways. Again, it does prevent a baby from forming which is good in ways for people who do get raped, or people who can't afford or are not ready to have a baby, and for females that can't have a baby without being harmed. With birth control, females don't have to go through the stages of experiencing an abortion because it does affect the woman and has an emotional toll on them for the rest of their lives. Abortion brings a lot of back and forth arguments and controversy so I won't really go into depth with this but I do believe that birth control does not go against FLO because it is just a preventative and not something that kills or destroys in a sense if that is understandable.....
ReplyDeleteThis is such a polarizing subject, and there doesn't seem to be any middle ground. Marguis's argument that birth control prevents a human fetus of FLO is flawed because if birth control works, there is no fetus to be deprived. I agree however, that abortion does prevent a human being of FLO and therefore is wrong.
ReplyDeleteIf you believe that human beings were created or evolved through God, then the expectation of FLO is the most fundamental and elemental right we have. Based on that, a woman's choice is already made the second that human life is conceived. She has the obligation to protect that life and safeguard it's FLO even at the expense of her own body and life. I know, that sounds harsh to many people, especially when you take into consideration the acts of violence that can be committed against women and girls that result in an unwanted and unplanned pregnancy. However, if you take the position that abortion deprives a human being of FLO, then that position is valid for every single person, regardless of whether that person is in the zygote or fetal stage of development.